Browsers And The End Of The Microsoft Era

[MrCC]

I copied this post over here to continue this discussion.

QUOTE (michaelsjewel @ Feb 23 2005, 10:13 PM)

i would like to comment on your little snippet of browser compatability on the bottom of that page......congrats to pointing out the true browser. my site has troubles with firefox or mozilla...and now netscape since netscape decided to make a new browser based on mozilla...big mistake that was.....i read an article somewhere that those browswers have just as many holes as IE had, but there's not enough people using them to figure that out. in fact, one big hole that i heard is still not resolved is the one where it can take over the whole ENTIRE SYSTEM...something i don't even think i've heard of when it came to IE's faults. Now considering that with the fact that IE has fixed most of its problems, including the new pop up blocker already into winxp sp2, then what's the point!!!! since the dumb browswers don't work with all sites, and i would say that most wouldn't know unless they came across a site like that, but it was stated in an article of a PC MAGAZINE That mozilla and firefox have compatability issues that still haven't been resolved with all sites. i'm not surprised though how probably the ones voting to remove the background audio from my site are the ones that cannot even hear it thanks to that dumb browser, even though it's fairly simple code. once microsoft releases the next IE, and b/c it's taking so long for the new version, i'm sure it'll be a killer, then we'll see who's going to succeed here.

Hey, what's wrong with trying to take a little money away from Bill Gates? He's too big for his own good. Remember when a browser was a separate program from your OS? Then Microsoft bundled the browser as part of their OS and cornered the market. It's time to change all that. On average Microsoft makes badly written software. It's time to give somebody else a try. It's bad for one company to own almost 100% market share of any product. Ever wonder why it costs over $200 for a retail boxed version of Windows XP Pro or over $400 for an Office suite? It's because they have cornered the market on OS's and then raised the price. Microsoft's marketing tactics are ruthless. When Windows first came out the price was $100 and it was just a bad copycat of Apple's OS. Then they dropped the price and started forcing computer makers to use their OS and practically gave it away until there were almost no competition. Well we're all paying for their monopoly now.

Support market diversity by downloading Foxfire or Mozilla at Mozilla.org (http://www.mozilla.org)! Sure it does not work for every site, but having no pop-ups at all is awesome! No pop-ups period. If it wasn't for Mozilla's small competition Microsft might never have added any pop-up blocking.

[Little Bird]

Personally, i prefere FireFox. It is nice to know I am running with something that is less suceptible to viruses and spyware (not to mention, it annoys Mr Gates!)

I have often thought about more stable os's like Linux but compatibility is always an issue.

In general, I go with Microsoft as it is the norm, unfortunately. I would like more choice in a reasonable price range but there just isn't one yet.

I do remember the days of using Netscape over Internet explorer. Having that choice then was great and not uncommon but integrating IE into the OS, has, I agree, made it more uniform in use that anything else.

VOTE FOR FIREFOX!!!!!! And it is so much better than explorer!

[MrCC]

Originally posted by little_bird@Feb 24 2005, 01:05 PM
Personally, i prefere FireFox. It is nice to know I am running with something that is less suceptible to viruses and spyware (not to mention, it annoys Mr Gates!)

I have often thought about more stable os's like Linux but compatibility is always an issue.

In general, I go with Microsoft as it is the norm, unfortunately. I would like more choice in a reasonable price range but there just isn't one yet.

I do remember the days of using Netscape over Internet explorer. Having that choice then was great and not uncommon but integrating IE into the OS, has, I agree, made it more uniform in use that anything else.

VOTE FOR FIREFOX!!!!!! And it is so much better than explorer!
I also remember using Netscape for a long time. The day that Netscape was bought by AOL I switched to ie. Now I've sort of switched back and use Firefox 99% of the time. The only time I use ie is when I am forced to by webmasters who only see the world in 1024x768 and you know who you are. ;)

I used AOL as my internet service provider years ago and hated it. They took the money directly out of my account and I had problems getting it turned off. They also had a terrible dialup service. Netscape was destroyed by AOL IMHO.

:wub: Firefox :wub:

[Intrepid Prez]

...

Not all browsers can read Basic HTML/XHTML code...
and most can't come to grips with CSS...
and that's before you introduce java into the equation.

On Kiera's poetry page:
http://www.geocities.com/jewel_australia/jewelspoetry.html
a background image is coded to stay put when you scroll the text.

Here's the code:

<body
bgproperties="fixed"
style="background-repeat: no-repeat;">

That is piss-simple-basic-code... yet not all browsers can work it out.

One browsers will repeat/splatter/tile the pic all over the page.
And another browser will scroll the background pic along with the text.

Yet... (even if you can't code) you can clearly read
that the background properties are supposed to be FIXED
and the background is NOT TO BE REPEATED !!!

Internet Explorer has no problems with any code.

I'm tired of dumbing down a page coz some browsers can't read it. !!!

Sure... if you don't like Bill Gates then boycott some of Microsoft's products.
But to boytcott Internet Explorer is plain pig-headed...
its cutting off your nose to spite your face.

When the other browsers learn to read code... then sure... your points are valid.


Easy... Justin


Oops sorry... didn't mean to sound snotty...
But there not much worst that staying up all night coding then...
discovering the page doesn't work in some obscure browser that
everyone is raving about in the internet forums. :rolleyes:



__________________________________________________ ____________________

[michaelsjewel]

you know i ttoally agree with ASPCJ.....

did you forget my comment on why i don't like firefox.... it's compatability sucks... don't forget, netscape used to be good back when it was 4.7 or older.... i used to use it over IE, but now it just plain sucks b/c of the mozilla build on - makes it less usable.....at least before the mozilla build on, it finally worked with simple HTML!

and bill gates being greedy...sure ...blame him for the fact his software just happens to be the most popular...if it wasn't...and firfox was....you'd have just as many holes and security issues as they'd be more widely pointed out....at least the guy believes in compatability as a whole...i could care less for the price of his software... the thing does run your whole DAMN SYSTEM AFTERALL....i think it could be raised even higher for all that it does and how well they support updates forever instead of making u purchase updates like other software does!

and like i said...IE fixed the pop up problem.... and at least in IE, you can see if it has blocked one...firefox you cannot! this especially becomes useful when a pop up just happens to be non advertisement, but what u wanted the browser to do in the first place......

and did you forget that security issue i remarked on in firefox and mozilla where it let someone take over your whole computer! - see, things happen in all software - just not pointed out in things less widely used.... it's a tough world right now - people are way smarter - it's going to happen! get over it and quit being so PIG HEADED and learn to accept the facts and why we choose something that actually WORKS!

reason netscape failed the past few years was that it went the wrong direction, and it's newest mozilla direction detours me away from it even more! really sad b/c it WAS a good browser!

[MrCC]

There's a common thread that ties you guys together. You pain over writing pages. As a user and not a coder I could care less if it take webmasters more work to make things compatable. (If Justin can sound snotty, then so can I.)

As far as taking over your whole computer. I haven't heard of it happening, but security issues are not the main reason I choose Firefox. I have lots of reasons - skins, pop-up blocking without having to download anything as mundane as a service pack, ease of use, it's a fast free download, pages load faster... I don't trust Microsoft and all their service packs. I can't keep up with all their security fixes. They have new ones every week. You might be right Michael - than Mozilla's security holes have yet to be found, but I will take my chances. I seriously doubt it could be much less secure that ie.

As far as pop-up blocking Firefox tells you that it blocks them and you just have to click on them to allow them on a case by case basis.

And I can't pretend to understand all of the acronyms that Justin posted, but if you need that many obscure languages to post a web page then I say simplify. I attended some seminars on coding and it seems like the technology is constantly changing if for no other reason than to sell new versions of software. Why write in c+ when you can use c++#!@% version 8.7? Seems like eventually you would have enough tools to code without needing more.

But what do I know? I'm just a silly American Jewel fan.

[bluediamond]

Ive always designed webpages using simple HTML WYSIWYG programs so i dont actually do too much coding. Lazy i know, but in the long run it saves a lot of time. Occationally ive had to delve into the black hole of coding in java or simply changing HTML code. And i hate it.

I have also designed my sites to view mainly in Explorer, usually using tables, frames etc. So unless youre veiwing at silly mode of about 1440 x 900 or above the usually look ok. I know this is selfish on a designers point of view, but you have to also draw the line somewhere. I mean, what site do you know that can look good at all modes, function correctly on all browsers ?

On the browser issue, i used Firefox for about a week, i guess the reason i went back to Explorer was because i knew it inside out. I work as an IT Technician at a University and all our users use it (apart from the mac people lol, dont start me off :bang: on that one lol) It seems to me that if your comfortable with using a product albiet software or hardware that does what you want then why change.

Oh! i can use my new smiley :-)
:lalala:

Dave.

[michaelsjewel]

new update weekly? don't u think that's a little overstated? i haven't had to download one for months now... seems like things are quieting down...

i'm not exactly mad b/c i'm a web designer, i'm mad the browser don't work with what i'm used to working! amazingly, it states that 25 million people are using it, out of the few that actually have the internet, that's a very large sum...i think they are overstating that as that may be the total downloads done, not the total users...i mean, i've downloaded the software multiple times b/c i keep on deleting the POS...lol and software updates don't count as users...according to PC mag, 91% still use IE.

[michaelsjewel]

i just loaded the firefox browser, interesting enough....with my firewall...it recommends i block it from using the internet.... obviously norton doesn't like it for some reason....makes me wonder!

[MrCC]

Any program that tries to access the internet will triger your firewall. If not what good is a firewall? You just have to say "allow it to access the internet" and you're fine. As far as Windows updates - they come out all the time. For a while I was getting a Microsoft security updates newsletter. I got E-mail notices for every new Microsoft software security hole as it was discovered. On average I got several per week. Just the newly discovered buffer overrun issues are enough to make your head spin. It's like they missed the first lesson in computer programming school: 1) expect people to misuse your software by mistake and on purpose 2) Design for every possible user input you can imagine.

Microsoft Security Updates for February (http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/200502_windows.mspx)
Microsoft recent Security Issues (http://www.microsoft.com/security/incident/default.mspx)
Microsoft Office Security Page (http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/200502_office.mspx)

You could spend 2 hours every day reading Microsoft Security bulletins and never get ahead.

In the end I think we will never agree. After all some of us drive Fords, some of us drive Chevys, and still others drive 40 year old Volkswagon beetles. Just think of our using Firefox like having a sticker on the back of our cars showing Calvin peeing on whatever it is that you like. And some of us actually like 0304! There's no explanation for why some people like what they do. Give Bill Gates all your money if you want. See if I care. ;) :bunny: :lovejkf:

[michaelsjewel]

see.....the firewall tells you if it believes you should block it or not...that's what i'm getting at...it automatically accepts some programs just because it knows they are good...! it's the fact it wanted me to block it instead of permitting it...especially when the word recommended was put beside it!

[michaelsjewel]

well....i'm trying to like this firefox thing, but it just isn't working...
the only thing i'm drawn to in it is the SKINS option...that's it...
try installing flash player and it acts as though there isn't one.... and quick time installer doesn't work either for it... i had to completely close and reopen the browser before anything took effect...and i was messing around with html codes and such...it still doesn't play background audio - unless it's flash audio. thank goodness for the flash player!

[Intrepid Prez]

As a user and not a coder I could care less if it take webmasters more work
to make things compatable....

but if you need that many obscure languages to post a web page then I say simplify. (Mike)

While SELFISH USERS such as YOURSELF keep demanding that websites
not only provde info but must provide images, music, animations, massive databases
(such as the Internet Movie Database), movie trailers, user groups, chat rooms etc.
it forces markup-language into obscurity.

"Simplify"... yeah, that's real easy to say. We have every computer on the planet
capable of talking to each other via the internet... sorry to break the news Mike...
but there just ain't no way of "simplifying" it.

If LAZY USERS weren't so demanding, then yeah, programers and coders might
have time to catch up with your EVER ESCALATING UNREASIONABLE DEMMANDS !!! :angry:

This time I'm NOT sorry for sounding snotty. :P ;)

In fact, I include a formal request to Kiera for a 'Gnashing Teeth' smiley icon thingo.

[MrCC]

Originally posted by Intrepid Prez@Feb 26 2005, 04:50 PM

As a user and not a coder I could care less if it take webmasters more work
to make things compatable....

but if you need that many obscure languages to post a web page then I say simplify. (Mike)

While SELFISH USERS such as YOURSELF keep demanding that websites
not only provde info but must provide images, music, animations, massive databases
(such as the Internet Movie Database), movie trailers, user groups, chat rooms etc.
it forces markup-language into obscurity.

"Simplify"... yeah, that's real easy to say. We have every computer on the planet
capable of talking to each other via the internet and, sorry Mike, but there ain't
no way of simplifying it.

If lazy users weren't so demmanding, then yeah,programmers and coders
might have time to catch up with your EVER EXCALATING UNREASIONABLE
DEMMANDS !!! :angry:

This time I'm NOT sorry for sounding snotty. ;)
Lazy. Selfish. Unreasonable. American. Demanding. Yea! I'm all that and more. :P

Guilty as charged and convicted without a trial!

[Intrepid Prez]

And... listen you ingnorant bum...

Can you refrain from answering until I've finished editing ???
I was gonna mention... on-line shopping, banking and other stuff that you
unappreciatative critics take for granted. :angry:

And I didn't mention "American"... but I gotta admit... it is in character. :P

*** Hey Kiera... can you please edit this post and include a dozen 'Gnashing
Teeth smiley icon emotion thingos' right here as soon as they arrive. Thanx. ***

[MrCC]

Originally posted by Intrepid Prez@Feb 26 2005, 06:16 PM
And... listen you ingnorant bum...

Can you refrain from answering until I've finished editing ???
I was gonna mention... on-line shopping, banking and other stuff that you
unappreciatative critics take for granted. :angry:

And I didn't mention "American"... but I gotta admit... it is in character. :P

*** Hey Kiera... can you please edit this post and include a dozen 'Gnashing
Teeth smiley icon emotion thingos' right here as soon as they arrive. Thanx. ***
And no replies to the "Stop the Press" thread yet! You surprise me.

Oh, is that too soon? Were you done editing yet? ;) :P

[michaelsjewel]

i hope prez wasn't talking about me being selfish and demanding of the browser? lol....i mean....shouldn't it work afterall? especially netscape - poor thing was working perfectly before that mozilla release...no wonder Warren Buffet sold netscape - because it's worthless now!

[MrCC]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Feb 27 2005, 11:59 AM
i hope prez wasn't talking about me being selfish and demanding of the browser? lol....i mean....shouldn't it work afterall? especially netscape - poor thing was working perfectly before that mozilla release...no wonder Warren Buffet sold netscape - because it's worthless now!
Hey Warren Buffet makes billions buying and selling. If he sold something you can bet he made a huge profit.

[michaelsjewel]

yah...but a good stock buyer and seller as he is...he knows when to sell a stock or company before it hits the dust.... i guess martha did that with her insider trading b/c she knew....but to me, i would've done the same thing....GO MARTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[michaelsjewel]

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119833,00.asp
is an interesting link to deter you away from new browsers...in fact, this article is stating that the reason you don't hear about mozilla or firefox security issues is b/c the company doens't announce the flaws, but rather says to upgrade.... at least microsoft admits it - so, with the thousands of security updates that mozilla has made in the past 2 years, that way outnumbers internet explorers....

for those that like IE, the new IE 7.0 browser is to be expected mid-year - interestingly earlier than when they originally were going to release it when the new OS comes out - i wonder what could be in 7.0 - probably everything that makes firefox desirable...and more! - plus, better compatability b/c no one does it better!

[MrCC]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 3 2005, 12:02 PM
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119833,00.asp
is an interesting link to deter you away from new browsers...in fact, this article is stating that the reason you don't hear about mozilla or firefox security issues is b/c the company doens't announce the flaws, but rather says to upgrade.... at least microsoft admits it - so, with the thousands of security updates that mozilla has made in the past 2 years, that way outnumbers internet explorers....

for those that like IE, the new IE 7.0 browser is to be expected mid-year - interestingly earlier than when they originally were going to release it when the new OS comes out - i wonder what could be in 7.0 - probably everything that makes firefox desirable...and more! - plus, better compatability b/c no one does it better!
Hey Microsoft has a good browser without a doubt. They also have a PR wing that's tries to smear any competing product. I don't beleive everyting Microsoft says. I just prefer Foxfire at the moment. The security thread mentioned in that article deals with spoofing of websites from links in E-mails. I try never to open links in E-mails ever unless I trust the source - so I'm not worried about it.

I think spoofing is something that preys on people's stupidity. I can't tell you how many times every month I get E-mails saying "Somebody tried to use your account. Please click here to update your information." Yea right, do I look like an idiot? I'm not clicking on that. If I have reason to beleive my account is compromised I will type the address in directly.

No matter what there are people who can scam you out there. You just have to be carefull when revealing any personal informaiton. In fact I almost always use a fake name and a special E-mail address whenever I register with any web site. I also use a PO box and have an unlisted home phone number. If ever I have to give a phone number I give 555-1212. I give my cellular if I actually want to talk to them.

Hey did I mention that I am a Nigerian General's Uncle's Gardener and I have over $10,000,000us dollars just sitting in an account. Just e-Mail me your bank account and I'll send you some, but don't tell anyone especially the FBI. ;) :P

[michaelsjewel]

lol.....

[Sasafrass452]

I love FireFox! No offense, but I can't stand IE. In fact, I'm not even using windows anymore! I'm using Linspire, & it's great! The best part is no viruses, no spyware, & I don't have to prove I bought it to get updates :) FireFox has lots of really cool extensions, & it's more customizable than IE probably ever will be. More & more people are switching to FireFox(over 25 million downloads), & here's a few examples why:
Ability to add/remove browser buttons.
Ability to block banner ads.
Ability to view the weather forecast & current conditions on the browser itself, instead of a website.
Better/easier cookie controls.
Less likely to get spyware or viruses.
Lots of extensions/add-ons available.
Better looking interface.

It's no wonder microsoft is scrambling to release the next *stand alone* version of IE, because they've finally noticed that people are sick of spyware & viruses! Their biggest mistake was bundling it with windows, but with the next version, it seems that you can *finally* remove it if you want to(or am I wrong?). In my experience, very few websites don't work in FireFox, so I can't see why anyone would stick with IE. It's just not worth the trouble.

[michaelsjewel]

technically...any version of windows u can remove IE...just visit the control panel....windows programs setup or something....and uncheck ie...that's it

no offense, when firefox actually becomes popular...i doubt what makes them so stable (which even though they don't work with how many sites that i visit so i'm not going to use it !!!!), then more security problems will be found and viruses will be more profound as people will want to attack it...by the way...downloads don't mean anything really....i mean...that's counting the total downloads of people...i alone downloaded it 10 times b/c i just didn't like it, but decided to check something out...etc....and they shouldn't count the downloads per release and add them altogether..... doesn't mean all 25 million downloads are being used either! i wonder what IE's number is...lol

[Sasafrass452]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Feb 25 2005, 06:13 PM
well....i'm trying to like this firefox thing, but it just isn't working...
the only thing i'm drawn to in it is the SKINS option...that's it...
try installing flash player and it acts as though there isn't one.... and quick time installer doesn't work either for it... i had to completely close and reopen the browser before anything took effect...and i was messing around with html codes and such...it still doesn't play background audio - unless it's flash audio. thank goodness for the flash player!
I never had any such problems. If you don't like FireFox, it's probably because you're not used to it. So what if you have to restart the browser for changes to take effect, that's nothing to complain about. Very few websites don't work well with FireFox, so I can't see why people complain about that. If you decide to try FireFox, just take the time to learn its features. There's all kinds of really cool extensions, too. IE doesn't have anything like that. I think what turns some people away from FireFox is not only website compatibility, but the look & feel of it. For an IE lover, it would take a while to get used to FireFox since it's so different. But it's TONS better than IE in many ways!

[michaelsjewel]

i like the skin look of firefox....so it's not that i'm not used to it.....

and i had troubles installing flash into it....had to do it 3 times before it actually did something - which IE does automatically.... it's your opinion that firefox is better in so many ways - i disagree - once IE comes out with their new browser....people will wonder what firefox was - love it when there's competition...only makes products better :) hopefully IE isn't stupid enough to make sites less compatable!

[Sasafrass452]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 10 2005, 11:36 AM
technically...any version of windows u can remove IE...just visit the control panel....windows programs setup or something....and uncheck ie...that's it

no offense, when firefox actually becomes popular...i doubt what makes them so stable (which even though they don't work with how many sites that i visit so i'm not going to use it !!!!), then more security problems will be found and viruses will be more profound as people will want to attack it...by the way...downloads don't mean anything really....i mean...that's counting the total downloads of people...i alone downloaded it 10 times b/c i just didn't like it, but decided to check something out...etc....and they shouldn't count the downloads per release and add them altogether..... doesn't mean all 25 million downloads are being used either! i wonder what IE's number is...lol
True, there will eventually be security threats as more people switch, but FireFox's features surpass IE's by far! That's why people are switching... not just for security, but for the features. Even the yahoo toolbar is now compatible with FireFox! It has features that you'll probably never see in IE. Give it a chance, learn it's features, & get used to it before you say you don't like it. BTW, you can't remove IE from windows because it's integrated. Windows won't run without it.

[Sasafrass452]

Originally posted by MrCC+Mar 3 2005, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MrCC @ Mar 3 2005, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-michaelsjewel@Mar 3 2005, 12:02 PM

i wonder what could be in 7.0 - probably everything that makes firefox desirable...and more! [/b][/quote]
I doubt that. If I'm not mistaken, the only new feature IE 7 will have is tabbed browsing, which FireFox has. Of course, it'll have more security, but beyond that? Who knows? It'll likely never have extensions like FireFox, & it'll probably look the same as always(which is boring). I'd be surprised if it has its own popup blocker without the need for XP service pack 2.

[MrCC]

I beleive as part of an antitrust suit Microsoft had to make a way to disable IE, but you would not want to. I still use it occasionally for stubborn sites that require it. Hey speaking of Microsoft here's an old photo of Bill Gates, before he became the wealthiest dork in the world:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/mugshots/gatesmug.jpg

[Sasafrass452]

Microsoft is always fighting anti-trust suits. Why would I not want to remove IE? Sure, a few sites only work in IE, but that's no reason to keep it. At least I don't have to worry about it, since I use Linux. It's microsoft's "use our products or else!" attitude that made me switch to Linux, not to mention all the spyware & viruses.

[michaelsjewel]

um.... my windows xp allows me to uninstall IE...what system you using ?

and what are these extensions? if you're talking about skins - i'm sure IE will probably come out with that sometime as demand grows for it! - in fact, b/c IE has way more users, there will probably be more to choose from...just visit ILOVEMESSENGER.com or something like that and u'll see the mass amts. of options for messenger even....

and spyware/viruses....only stupid people get those!
and those in denial..... switching to another system or browser won't fix your problems...in the long run...it only creates more problems as hackers and programmers will soon find a way to break them !!!

you are like everyone else - you say use it to get used to it...i have...and i hate it! until it works with everything, it doesn't deserve even a 1 out of 5 star rating...in fact.....i'd give it a negative star! as for tabbed browsing, i see no point to it and it's for people that can't get away from their computer...lol....u can do the same thing by resizing windows anyhow, so there's no real use for it!

[MrCC]

I don't understand why people can defend ie like it's some great insult just to have a different preference. Some people like an alternate browser. So what? What's the big deal? I prefer foxfire.

[michaelsjewel]

i'm defending it b/c they are bashing it...that's why! :mooner:

[Angel_Eyes]

Yeah, I like Mozilla and Firefox more than IE (yes, i have all 3 browsers downloaded). The tabbed browsing is nifty because if you usually have more than one (or two... or three) window open, then you can just open the pages in a different tab and keep the taskbar pretty empty. Like right now, I have 2 tabs open in the same window... one for this site and the other for my Livejournal friends page which I check more than needed. Along with that, I also have a window open for my email and the Street Team board. See, I'm the type of person who, if something automatically hits my brain and makes me curious about something, I'll stop what I'm doing, open a window and look it up, so I sometimes have more than 4 windows open. I guess it's not necessary for someone who only uses one window, but for me, it's pretty useful. And yes, I realize that I sound like a loser right now.

Still, it's just my opinion, so don't get all defensive about it.

[Angel_Eyes]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 10 2005, 08:57 PM
i'm defending it b/c they are bashing it...that's why! :mooner:
So, it's alright if you bash Mozilla and Firefox, but it's not alright if we "bash" IE?

__________________________________________________ ____

[michaelsjewel]

hmmmm....i never started bashing mozilla/firefox until they began IE BASHING.... in fact, they even got me to try the browser..i still think it sucks, although the skin thing is kewl - that's about it!

[MrCC]

I'm not for bashing anything or anybody.

I just have a preference. Expressing a negative opinion is not necessarily bashing. Bashing is trying to tear somebody down for their opinion. We can have different preferences without resorting to insults.

If we all had the same opinion there would be no reason for a forum and life would be very boring indeed.

:lovejkf:

[Sasafrass452]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 10 2005, 02:44 PM
um.... my windows xp allows me to uninstall IE...what system you using ?

and what are these extensions? if you're talking about skins - i'm sure IE will probably come out with that sometime as demand grows for it! - in fact, b/c IE has way more users, there will probably be more to choose from...just visit ILOVEMESSENGER.com or something like that and u'll see the mass amts. of options for messenger even....

and spyware/viruses....only stupid people get those!
and those in denial..... switching to another system or browser won't fix your problems...in the long run...it only creates more problems as hackers and programmers will soon find a way to break them !!!

you are like everyone else - you say use it to get used to it...i have...and i hate it! until it works with everything, it doesn't deserve even a 1 out of 5 star rating...in fact.....i'd give it a negative star! as for tabbed browsing, i see no point to it and it's for people that can't get away from their computer...lol....u can do the same thing by resizing windows anyhow, so there's no real use for it!
It's simply IMPOSSIBLE to remove IE. Windows will not run without it because it's part of the OS. My father repairs computers for a living, & he had a customer that removed IE which caused windows to stop running. It's a known fact, you CAN'T remove IE. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I use Linux now, because of the spyware, virus threats, & the requirement to prove I bought windows to get updates. I know that security leaks in Linux(if any) will eventually be discovered, but that probably won't happen for a long time.

The extensions are add-ons for FireFox such as a menu button, the weather, or even a clock with an alarm. There's lots of extensions available, & you can get them at http://mozdev.org , http://www.extensionsmirror.nl , or http://extensionroom.mozdev.org IE can't do anything like this, believe me. Some of these extensions are really cool, it's what makes FireFox such a unique & worthwhile browser. So, a few sites don't work well in FireFox. Big deal. It doesn't make it a bad browser. Exactly what don't you like about it? It works fine for me, & I have no complaints. Lots of people are now using it. In fact, it's even earned more marketshare which caused microsoft to start rushing the release of IE 7. If FireFox was really that bad, no one would be using it which is obviously not the case.

[michaelsjewel]

like i said...nothing that'd make me want it....by the way...if i already haven't stressed this out enough...it's b/c it's not working with anything...i'm a webmaster and i know these things very well..... for example

on my site, background sound don't work in firefox, even though it's the simplest of codes that even we've learned in highschool as basic html....

also, the text that's supposed to show up on top of imagery sometimes that explains what it is, doesn't work in firefox......

also, when you click onto an audio or video file, instead of just opening the audio or video, it loads a blank page with it....to solve this issue of people being lost from my site, last nite i changed it to open a whole diff window just for it, which is dumb!

by the way...spyware doesn't ususally come from using IE, it comes from the programs you usually download as freeware. Even i have gotten a few, but i know to remove them with a spyware removal system - and also, it never told me about the pop ups that i wanted to see - though IE does! at least xp sp2 tells me these things and gives me an option that's plain to see with a little yellow tab!

firefox is a whole new browser, and they've already found tons of problems with it - it even says in an article over it that it don't work completely with sites, though unless u knew what was supposed to be there, u might not notice it. and security issues have been found that take over your whole system just like IE can do, but at least IE or microsoft tells you there's an update rather than just tell u to download the whole new browser..... in fact, they said firefox simply gets by without telling u that there are holes.... even though there have been over thousands of fixes in the past year alone!

i know that activating software thing from experience using windows xp home that i bought, but they changed XP to not have to activate anymore...bc my new laptop doesn't have that problem...i know it's a pain to do so, but it does somewhat prevent piracy on products....and with the capabilities of piracy out there - if nothing was done to stop it - they wouldn't make any money to improve their products!

sad thing i don't like about netscape now is that they've decided to rebuild on mozilla structure, which makes it just as annoying to use for correctness on sites as firefox is - and that's sad b/c netscape was an awesome browser...if i remember right....tabbing was a feature in netscape or something like that long before mozilla existed!

and installing flash 3 times to finally get it to work - it should work the first time - i've never been so frustrated with such a retarded browser - i'll wait a few years until they work out all the bugs - b/c i'm not a beta tester!

[Sasafrass452]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 11 2005, 01:38 PM
by the way...spyware doesn't ususally come from using IE, it comes from the programs you usually download as freeware. Even i have gotten a few, but i know to remove them with a spyware removal system - and also, it never told me about the pop ups that i wanted to see
Spyware can come from banner ads, so if you don't block them... look out! AdAware & Spybot are 2 of the best programs for removing spyware, so use those if you don't already. FireFox does tell you when it blocks a popup.

[Angel_Eyes]

Personally, the things you described aren't really important enough for me to want to switch browsers... again. Background music is nice, but I rarely listen to music on the computer anymore. Also, are you talking about the text when you hover your mouse over an image? If so, then I don't see any real need for it either. As for the audio and video thing, I do find it a tad annoying, but not so much to where I'd simply refuse to keep the browser. I've just learned to right click and save as most of the time.

By the way, Firefox does tell you when a popup has been blocked. See a screen shot HERE (http://home.ripway.com/2005-3/267244/firefoxpopup.jpg).

I do agree that neither Mozilla nor Firefox are perfect, but neither is IE. Since it is new, I'm sure that they'll eventually fix things. You know that they will.


EDIT: Wait a minute. I just realized that hovering your mouse over images and seeing text does work. It just doesn't work on sites powered my homestead and geocities. So, blame them, not Firefox.

__________________________________________________ ______________

[michaelsjewel]

it's not homestead's fault...it's mozilla/firefox's for starting a whole new architecture of a program that makes it unconfigurable!

also, with note why i think it isn't homestead or geocities, or anything for that matter's fault is that a browser is supposed to work with HTML no matter what it is! - i believe that netscape, before the stupid mozilla infrastructure update to it, EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY WORKED! now it's just s**t again!

and you have yet to give me a reason to want to switch to firefox - only thing useful is the skins - and that's not really useful - but eye candy!

[Angel_Eyes]

Honestly, I think you're just too stubborn (I admit that I am too, so that's not an insult). You say we haven't given you good enough reasons, but I think the main thing is that you just simply don't want to switch. Period. You say you give it a negative star no matter what anyone says and that it's not a good enough reason to switch. Maybe it isn't for YOU, but it is for other people. That's just the plain and simple truth.

By the way, it is partially Homestead's fault that some things don't work properly. They could try to look into the problem themselves and fix it, but they're not. And yes, I know that Mozilla and Firefox could do the same also... that's why I said "partially".

[Angel_Eyes]

Oh, and another thing. For me, the popup blocker is a good enough reason, because I'm still running on Windows 98. I know that I need to update, but for the time being I like having a free browser that blocks ads. There's other things that we need to spend money on rather than upgrading the damn computer.


__________________________________________________ __________

[michaelsjewel]

you still run windows 98? you poor thing! bet you'd love xp though even though u don't want to upgrade...if i were u...wait until 2006 for the whole new operating system :)

[Angel_Eyes]

Yeah, it's not that we don't want to upgrade, it's just that there are more important stuff we have to worry about. We just barely decided to get a new printer, scanner and copier in one, and that's only because 1.) our current printer and scanner are crap and 2.) the price was reduced (my mom works at WalMart so she gets a discount also. Plus, she put it on layaway). If we had more money to spend then I'm sure we would upgrade, but for now we'll just stick with what we have.

[michaelsjewel]

yah...i'd wait if i were u - i got myself an HP all in one possibly like yours...it's a HP Photosmart 2610v...yah...that was 300 right there with my 10% discount b/c i work @ walmart part time to pay the bills while i attend college....yah...i know....depressing!

[Angel_Eyes]

Heh, I really don't know what kind it is exactly, it's not out of layaway yet. I do know that it was nowhere near $300, though. I think it started out about $100 and was reduced to about $80 or $90 something. There's no way that we'd spend more than $150 on something like that. Well, except for my dad, but I won't go there.

[Sasafrass452]

Upgrading your computer can be expensive, especially when you buy windows. Linspire(Linux) is only $50, however, I got it through a special offer for $20 B) You'll never see windows that cheap!

[Little Bird]

Then again, having a 98 PC can be great against spyware and viruses. Most of todays spyware and viruses are made for Windows XP or 2000. All the old ones that were for Win 98 are long protected if you have recent firewall or antivirus software program installed.

I have a 98 pc at home. I use it for testing. I don't have an antivirus or firewall on it but after running a few scans a month with Stinger or Ad-aware, it always comes up clean. Just goes to show you that old can still be good.

[MrCC]

Originally posted by little_bird@Mar 14 2005, 06:17 AM
Then again, having a 98 PC can be great against spyware and viruses. Most of todays spyware and viruses are made for Windows XP or 2000. All the old ones that were for Win 98 are long protected if you have recent firewall or antivirus software program installed.

I have a 98 pc at home. I use it for testing. I don't have an antivirus or firewall on it but after running a few scans a month with Stinger or Ad-aware, it always comes up clean. Just goes to show you that old can still be good.
I know some people that love Windows 98 and intend never to update to XP. 98se was one of the most stable OS's Microsoft ever produced. For browsing it really does not matter what OS you choose. I have four computers running in my home that run different OS's - Windows 2000, Windows XP Pro, Windows XP Home, and Windows 98se. I prefer XP Pro on my primary computer, but I was thinking of switching one of my older computers one to Linux, just for browsing. Have you ever heard of Microsoft Virtual PC? With this software you can run several OS's on the same PC and flip back and forth between them. I've also got copies of several different "Not for Resale" versions of Microsoft server OS's, but I really think I have no real need for them. :lalala:

[Little Bird]

Sounds cool Mike. I do like that idea of the virtual PC. In work we use 2 different platforms, NT and more recently XP. I support (along with 4 lads) 400 PC's and only about 85 are XP Pro. We use dual booting PC's with the 2 OS's but the lads an i mainly use XP as most of our support tools work best on it. Having a system that will allow us to switch between NT and XP back and forth without rebooting would be an excellent advantage. However, we do use a remote desktop application that allows us to see what the user sees on about 60% of our PC's.

Excellent Idea though I think it would have a lot of pressure on the resources of the PC. How would it be able to apply RAM and processing speed to 2 completely different operating systems? Perhaps it's requirement is a processsor with Hyperthreading and Dual Channel RAM.

Interesting.

Anyway, i digress.

[michaelsjewel]

yah....that 98se being more less threatened by hackers and viruses...that's b/c it isn't really popular anymore...my site stats can show u this - though 98 is second on the list....

it's just the idea...what is most popular is most threatened for vulnerability.... i loved winodws 98 - we had it on our first pc and we never had problems with it...but then again. - have even less problems with xp for crashes wise - even though windows 98 didn't crash much....

as for linux being 50, wow.... though i don't mind spending lots of money for an OS when it comes with the computer anyhow - besides, it runs the whole computer.... norton interenet security alone costs 60 or 70, which i think is absurd when it only does a few things...see what i'm saying? some software that doesn't even run the computer costs way more than windows - like adobe creative suite, flash stuff...etc.... i'm not one to complain about xp being so expensive - lots goes into keeping it up to date and they use that money to further better the product since they have so much to work on - including the fact they have to constantly patch things b/c it is so popular - that more are likely to find holes - all software has patches now and then - i hate to know how to write software to tell u the truth - i'd probably have holes times 1 million - but i wouldn't have a patch - but my major isn't for writing software so it doesn't matter....i applaud windows for making one of the easiest systems to use back with windows 95...yah maybe a copy of Mac, but when i use a mac, i get frustrated as i cannot find anything on it i want to find - windows made it easy! and you have to give it credit for that, because if it wasn't so easy, it wouldn't be the most popular OS today even. computer companies really can do whatever OS they want, just that they recommend certain ones over others because of compatability issues....

u notice how we're talking about OS rather than browsers now? lol
deep down, even though i don't like firefox b/c it's not original - nor is it fully compatable - i still do like the browser for its differences - just i wish i could get background audio to work with it :coffee:

i recently bought the studio mx (including flashmx) software - but i'm so clueless on where to begin that it may be a long time before my site integrates flash onto it ...but i think it shall be fun :) i mean, see where experimenting got me over the past 5 years with graphics! i had no clue what to expect when i first bought the software (just a cheap 50 dollar picture publisher 8 software) that has been creating some of the graphics i still use - i switch now back and forth between photoshop and picture publisher...they are more complements rather than competitors.... photoshop is great if i understood more about it - but pp8 can do things more simple like display a text type without having to change the text in the image itself - even the simple things matter!

[Angel_Eyes]

Ok, I barely know what you guys are talking about, so I'm going to stay out of it. ;)

As for graphic programs (refering to Michael's last paragraph), I use The GIMP (http://www.gimp.org). I've never had Paintshop Pro, Photoshop, or anything like that, so I don't really know how they work, but once you get used to it The GIMP is easy to use. The cool thing about it is that you can make animations, but don't have to use a different program to do it. Plus, it's FREE! There are a couple of things that are a tad annoying, but overall it's really useful. :)

[MrCC]

Originally posted by little_bird@Mar 14 2005, 10:33 AM
Sounds cool Mike. I do like that idea of the virtual PC. In work we use 2 different platforms, NT and more recently XP. I support (along with 4 lads) 400 PC's and only about 85 are XP Pro. We use dual booting PC's with the 2 OS's but the lads an i mainly use XP as most of our support tools work best on it. Having a system that will allow us to switch between NT and XP back and forth without rebooting would be an excellent advantage. However, we do use a remote desktop application that allows us to see what the user sees on about 60% of our PC's.

Excellent Idea though I think it would have a lot of pressure on the resources of the PC. How would it be able to apply RAM and processing speed to 2 completely different operating systems? Perhaps it's requirement is a processsor with Hyperthreading and Dual Channel RAM.

Interesting.

Anyway, i digress.
Kierra:

Yea, I have a copy of Virtual PC, but I have not installed it yet. I'm building a new system, but I'm slow getting it going. I went to a live Microsoft tech seminar on this product. Have you ever logged onto any of their online virtual training? They have live ones where you can ask questions by typing and the instructor will answer your questions. Some of them are always available for playback, but the live ones happen on a regular basis. If you are interested I can get you info. Microsoft online webinars are free. I "attended" a bunch of them last year.

The seminar I went to the guy had a laptop with something like 2gb of ram. He was running XP Pro on the base system, but he also had a Windows SQL Server on another system, and said you could even load linux on another. You allocate a certain amount of ram to the "host OS" which runs the virtual PC program. I think you have to allocate the amount of resources for each virtual system up front, but I cannot remember if you can change it dynamically. I don't know the requirements, but I could find out.

[MrCC]

Originally posted by michaelsjewel@Mar 14 2005, 11:34 AM
yah....that 98se being more less threatened by hackers and viruses...that's b/c it isn't really popular anymore...my site stats can show u this - though 98 is second on the list....

it's just the idea...what is most popular is most threatened for vulnerability.... i loved winodws 98 - we had it on our first pc and we never had problems with it...but then again. - have even less problems with xp for crashes wise - even though windows 98 didn't crash much....

as for linux being 50, wow.... though i don't mind spending lots of money for an OS when it comes with the computer anyhow - besides, it runs the whole computer.... norton interenet security alone costs 60 or 70, which i think is absurd when it only does a few things...see what i'm saying? some software that doesn't even run the computer costs way more than windows - like adobe creative suite, flash stuff...etc.... i'm not one to complain about xp being so expensive - lots goes into keeping it up to date and they use that money to further better the product since they have so much to work on - including the fact they have to constantly patch things b/c it is so popular - that more are likely to find holes - all software has patches now and then - i hate to know how to write software to tell u the truth - i'd probably have holes times 1 million - but i wouldn't have a patch - but my major isn't for writing software so it doesn't matter....i applaud windows for making one of the easiest systems to use back with windows 95...yah maybe a copy of Mac, but when i use a mac, i get frustrated as i cannot find anything on it i want to find - windows made it easy! and you have to give it credit for that, because if it wasn't so easy, it wouldn't be the most popular OS today even. computer companies really can do whatever OS they want, just that they recommend certain ones over others because of compatability issues....

u notice how we're talking about OS rather than browsers now? lol
deep down, even though i don't like firefox b/c it's not original - nor is it fully compatable - i still do like the browser for its differences - just i wish i could get background audio to work with it :coffee:

i recently bought the studio mx (including flashmx) software - but i'm so clueless on where to begin that it may be a long time before my site integrates flash onto it ...but i think it shall be fun :) i mean, see where experimenting got me over the past 5 years with graphics! i had no clue what to expect when i first bought the software (just a cheap 50 dollar picture publisher 8 software) that has been creating some of the graphics i still use - i switch now back and forth between photoshop and picture publisher...they are more complements rather than competitors.... photoshop is great if i understood more about it - but pp8 can do things more simple like display a text type without having to change the text in the image itself - even the simple things matter!
Anything Adobe is expensive. If you can get the student versions go for it. I found out that if you are not a full time student there is another way to get educational verions. If you have a child enrolled in any school K-12 you qualify for educational software. You also qualify if you home school your kids. All you need is a letter from the school saying you or your child is enrolled in school. As I recall Adobe Acrobat Pro 6.0 was around $400, while the educational version was only about $100. Trouble is after a year of using Acrobat Pro every day I find this software to be difficult to use and really it does very little.

All you need to do is scan one school homework sheet into Acrobat for your kid and you're in. ;)

Norton seems to like to sell you the whole "suite", but I've found that while their antivirus program is not bad the rest of the suite is not real useful. The trend today too is to sell this type of software as a subscription. That way you have to pay for the program every year. Over and over and over again.

[MrCC]

Originally posted by Angel_Eyes@Mar 14 2005, 07:54 PM
Ok, I barely know what you guys are talking about, so I'm going to stay out of it. ;)

Hey, I rarely know what I'm talking about. That never stopped me from giving my two cents though. :P ;)